Saturday, March 22, 2008

Open Thread #71

New open thread, new topics.

Happy Easter!

84 comments:

dale said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cole said...

What's the best bar in town? I gotta say that nothing compares to Joe Black's. Thoughts?

Anonymous said...

Did anyone hear about that person who recieved $1400 off ebay because she found a cornflake that looked like the Illinois state shape?

That is the most stupidest thing I ever heard, and besides, that corn flake looks nothing like that state. Maybe we should start auctioning cereals that look like North Dakota!

Anonymous said...

Is it just me, or does everybody in the service industry despise canadians??

Anonymous said...

It's just you.

Sorry, but you asked.

Logan said...

So who thinks that sorority party is going to have a negative impact on the fight for keeping the UND nickname?

http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=71393

Anonymous said...

God, I hope that sorority story pushes it off the cliff. There is no way UND is keeping that nickname, so it just needs to be done. I like the nickname, I was a Sioux letterwinner, and I received my degree from UND, so I would prefer to see the nickname stay just the way it is, but this 'controversy' is a total distraction.

Give the whiners what they want, and let the rest of us move forward.

Anonymous said...

Anon, 7:51, please clarify who you mean by the whiners: the many people who are calling for the end of the nickname or the American Indian students who are filing a discrimination complaint against the sorority. Even people who still support the nickname should be aware of racist incidents in and around Grand Forks and not pass them off as "whining."

Kelly Clow said...

Honest to God, you call that costume party a "racist incident"?

Are you serious?!

How about everyone (including certain sanctimonious Native Americans) dressing up in shamrocks and getting plowed out of their minds every St. Pats? How about the ever-present alcohol imagery associated with the Irish in popular culture? Ever look at a St. Patrick's day card?

I'm Irish, and if I sued every non-Irish person who dressed up in outfits I considered disrespectful to my culture, I'd either be filthy rich or dismissed as a total crackpot.

Come on people, this is just some kids blowing off some steam in a PRIVATE party.

Let it go.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Kelly. I'm Irish. If I had a green beer for every comment that was made to me on March 17th about "drunken Irish", I could buy a round at the Shanty. Come on folks, let's focus on some serious issues here. As a Sioux name supporter, I feel it is time to change the name. Not because it is offensive, but to give certain faculty at UND time to teach.

Anonymous said...

I'm sure that offensive comments are still made against Irish folks, especially on St. Patrick's Day, but the fact is that it's been many years (probably before Kennedy was elected president) that the Irish were a people commonly discriminated against in the U.S. It's a lot easier to brush off insults when no one really expects you to leave "their" land. Many American Indian students at UND have heard local White people yell things like "go home Prairie N****r" at them. Why should they trust that costumes and poses misappropriating at their heritage are all in good fun? That "war paint" was slapped on and sexualized, not in line with any respectful portrayal of a native warrior.

As the Herald reported, Clemson University (South Carolina) recently had to take action after a party in which White students were padding their backsides to poke fun of Blacks. Sure, some "booty jokes" may be funny, but when one group uses stereotypes to try to keep a minority group in their place, the only way the minority group will feel accepted and trust the majority is they're already treated as equals in most other respects. That hasn't happened yet for American Indians in North Dakota.

Anonymous said...

Is anything open today? I'm bored out of my skull. I thought Target would be at least, so I could kill an hour. :|

Anonymous said...

I am of Irish descent...I just want to that to be clear. The problem with trying to make a comparison between the American Indians' situation and Irish decendents in America is, that in modern society, Irish Americans (or those of us of Irish decent) relish and revel in our history and heritage. We, ourselves, propogate the stereotype of the Irish shamrock lovn' stout guzzln' Mic. We, for lack of a better word, are proud of it. As am I.

And we love when others join us in these celebrations of our hertitage. We love our heritage and how we've perservered against discrimination. However, it was easier for us to blend in over time, as we looked like the typical "white American."

The best thing, and most distinct thing about the Irish in America, is our undying love for the old homeland and its culture coupled with our embrace of America. The Irish love their heritage, true enough, but there also are no bigger patriots in America than Irish Americans.

I just don't think we can so readily and conveniently lump the American Indian experience in with the Irish experience in America. It was different, to be ultra-simplistic.

The Irish in America have not had it easy, but, they eventually were more readily accepted than the American Indian, because the Irish wanted to assimilate (yet retain bits of their culture). They weren't forced to as the Indians were.

American Indians I tend to think still hold that against the majority culture. Thus, they jealously hold on to their individualism, at least when it comes to culture, and they don't want those who "don't get it" to join in. Look at it as their own exclusive club, where the dues were paid with the blood of their ancestors.

Kelly Clow said...

Is it OK for people to refer to Native Americans as "Reds"?

I ask, because your previous comment repeatedly referred to Caucasians as "Whites" and referred to African Americans as "Black".

Political correctness goes BOTH ways.

"It's a lot easier to brush off insults when no one really expects you to leave 'their' land."

Really? Some Native Americans have repeatedly laid claim to North America as "their land", and consider everyone else here to be thieves.

"it's been many years (probably before Kennedy was elected president) that the Irish were a people commonly discriminated against in the U.S."

I beg to differ. Go down the cereal aisle sometime and pick up a box of Lucky Charms. Go to Spencers after Valentine's Day and go look at the culturally sensitive items on display there.

Native Americans complain about their imagery being displayed around the Ralph? Try having the shamrock (a symbol of the Holy Trinity) slapped onto a green, crotchless, see-through thong.

Now, I'm not trying to get into a pissing match over who's got it worse. I'm just trying to point out that EVERYBODY has some sort of culturally insensitive skeleton in their closet, and lawsuits won't fix anything.

Anonymous said...

No, it's not OK to refer to Native Americans as Reds, even though some may refer to their skin tone by using the word "red." Black, on the other hand, is often used interchangeably with African American. Listen to Obama talk. It's not all vague references to hope -- last week he really tackled racial issues and most often used "Black" as the adjective and "African Americans" as the noun to refer to that racial group in the U.S. As for White, it has become the preferred term for many journalists and scholars writing about European Americans and certain other Caucasian persons. Caucasian also includes the peoples on the sub-continent of India and can also include Arabs, so it doesn't have the same cultural meaning as White. If you really want to learn more about accepted uses of racial and ethnic terms, pick up a copy of the APA Publicaion Manual, since APA style is used across the social and behavioral sciences.

Anonymous said...

To the remark that it was just some kids blowing off steam, I disagree. I attended the party and there was no offense intended. It was simply a bunch of students not thinking about the impact they could make. But the Cowboys and Indians Party (it wasn't just a cowboys party, as the girl in the article claimed, but neither was it entirely to bash Indians) was all in fun, not necessarily with purposeful disregard to the Native Americans, but just a bunch of silly college students having fun by taking on the theme of old westerns. Thought simply wasn't given to the Native Americans, so, yes: oops, our mistake. But, lay off. It was a bunch of silly college kids. The thought of Native Americans' opinion never crossed our poor, ignorant minds, but no offense was meant either. :)


By the way, is anything open? Target is closed, to the anonymous asking, but... Does anyone know if Wal-Mart is? Or if I need to grab groceries later this evening, is their anyplace that would be open? Wal-Mart/Hugo's?

Thanks :)

Kelly Clow said...

So, the American Psychological Association, to you, is the final word on accepted terminology?

The APA is one of the most notorious Liberal think tanks in existence. They are the same organization that published a study on how political Conservatism is a social disorder.

Anonymous said...

The same thing that conservatives say about liberalism. So who's right? Depends on whether you affiliate with the right or the left, I guess. Simple as that.

Anonymous said...

Hugo's is open on 32nd

Kelly Clow said...

"The same thing that conservatives say about liberalism."

Certainly, but we offer it as personal opinion, to be regarded or disregarded as one sees fit, not as professional doctrine to be taught as gospel.

Anonymous said...

A few questions about the party:
1. Who came up with the idea of a Cowboys and Indians theme? Did they think, for even a moment, that it might not be, well, good?
2. Where was it held? "Off-campus"? In a house? If so, whose house?
3. Lots of drinks in those pictures. All held by 21 year olds?
4. What are the students' parents thinking right now? Are they proud?
5. What will the sorority itself think? This is an international sorority. Check out their website and see if this party at all fits in with their mission. I imagine THEY will have something to say about this party. Remember, this is just a chapter.

This is a UND-related issue. The sorority is affiliated with UND, and it's not a bunch of kids blowing off steam. Once they're holding a beer in their hands, they're claiming they're 21, and "kidhood" has ended.

You can't be 21, going to a university, being trained to be a leader (sorority website), and expect to fall back on "Gee, I'm just a kid" when you're caught doing something stupid.

Kelly Clow said...

The idea that political correctness is a watermark of adulthood is as offensive as it is ignorant.

The question was not whether or not the students were drinking, or having a party or even dressing in silly costumes for that party. The question was whether or not they were intentionally excluding or causing duress to a particular race of people.

I can't imagine that was the purpose.

If they are guilty of anything, it's bad taste.

Anonymous said...

Why do the Irish drink so much?

Anonymous said...

Because they're still trying to drown their melancholies from the Great Potato Famine. "Oh Danny, Boyyyy! The pipes, the pipes, they are ..."

Why do Indians sit outside the liquor stores in Devil Lake and say stuff to me like (in that sing songy native acccent) "Hey, friend, can you get me some Budweiser!?"

I hope I didn't offend anyone ...

"I vas yust following orders! Sich, heil!"

Kelly Clow said...

Oh, crap. We woke the Anonymous children up.

It's OK kids, the grown-ups were just having a discussion about grown-up stuff. There's no reason to be scared, we still love each other.

We'll be up in a minute to tuck you in and tell you a story about the Olive Garden, OK?

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Ma! Good night, John Boy.

Anonymous said...

Who gives a shit? Can nobody have fun anymore?

By the way, Kelly, you were having a conversation about this with Anonymous. It's all the same, isn't it? You just happened to talk with one who was... well, could hold a conversation on here.

Anonymous said...

Kelly is a bit of a momma's boy! Probably hangs out all day at the strip clubs on Hillsborough or on Dale Mabry in Tampa, at Mons Venus, I would presume, 'cause it's the only way he can get any.

Try Lipstixx over by the airport, the corner of Hillsborough and Lois Ave., ask for Maria. You won't be disappointed ... LOL

Kelly Clow said...

Read about that stuff on Mapquest?

Or did your mother take you to work with her to make her pimp feel sorry about taking all her trick money?

Either way, you sure have an impressive knowledge of stank houses. One might even say too impressive...

Kelly Clow said...

Besides, everybody knows that the Penthouse Club on Westshore is the best place to go! ;)

Anonymous said...

Mapquest? I don't need that I live here.

And yes, I admit it. I frequent them as much as you, Kelly, but don't go trying to say you go to the Penthouse. You, like, me would never be allowed in there. I am watching you. Stop by the Main Sail where I live sometime. It's right at the corner of Eisenhower and Hillsborough. We can sit down at "Latitudes" righ next to the main lobby and have a tall glass of suds and a Cuban sandwich, while we chat about our surviells of local adult establishmanets. Then, we can head over Ybor City and score on the cougers that stalk the young boys at the clubs. Or, better yet, how about the Green Iguana. It's closer to my pad and I can just ride the Main Sail shuttle van over there. We wouldn't need a DD.

I would have loved to party with you during Gasparilla back in January. We could have picked up the fine ladies from USF.

Or, if we dress up, we can go over to the Blue Martini at the International Plaza. Lots of nice looking ladies there, as you very well know.

Or, we don't have to stay confined to Tampa...but,we'll stay away from all the Bible thumpers over in Clearwater. Too many Scientologists over at Clearwater Beach, too. Although,a fun time can be had there. My buddy once ran totally buck naked through a seaside restaurant in Clearwater Beach. The whole place was packed and everyone thought it was a jackass stunt.

Kelly, we really got to hook up so I can leach off you and your whoring skills.

Brothers by the bay,

Steve

Kelly Clow said...

Ok,

This has officially turned surreal.

Seriously, who are you?

Anonymous said...

What, you didn't think you were the only one in Tampa with Grand Forks connections. I was born and raised in North Dakota, now loving the Sunshine State. 1998 graduate of UND. Go Fighting Sioux. Hint: Southwest Airines.

Still watching you. But, don't worry I'm harmless. I talk a big talk in the blogosphere when I'm veiled by this shield of anonymity. I don't want to give that up.

By the way, I commute on Westshore everyday, and drive right past the Penthouse Club. I thought that was funny when you brought that up. I see it on my way to MacDill (No, I am not a baser, though I have business there.)

Anyway, we can end this if you want. I am sure others aren't interested in our blog tennis.

Steve

Kelly Clow said...

I surely didn't think I was the only one down here with GF connections.

Hell, I recently ran into a friend of mine from high school at JC Penney who I didn't know was living down here now.

But, you speak like you know me personally, except for the whole strip club stuff. I honestly haven't been in one of those down here in years.

As for the whole "I'm watching you, but don't worry, I'm harmless." stuff, yeah....that's something someone usually hears right before waking up the next day to find a dead cat on their doorstep with "I love you" carved into it.

Creepy.

Anonymous said...

True. Oh well, good luck.

Anonymous said...

To anon @ 3:25 pm, thanks for posting that list of questions about the party and the comments that follow. You really cut to the chase and I hope yours are among the questions addressed in the discrimination complaint (note to all readers: the issue is currently framed as an internal, UND affair, not a lawsuit).

logan said...

"The thought of Native Americans' opinion never crossed our poor, ignorant minds, but no offense was meant either." (2:35 PM, March 23, 2008)

This is exactly why we haven't earned the right to keep the Sioux nickname. Poor, ignorant minds. Regardless of what UND staff and faculty claim about our intended respect of Native culture, the majority of students on campus just don't know enough to make educated decisions about what being culturally sensitive to Native Americans entails.

To kelly clow 12:19 PM, March 23, 2008: That "PRIVATE" party became public when the sorority's current president posted pictures on the internet.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ 3:35pm,

As I stated earlier, the idea did not occur that it would offend anyone. "Cowboys and Indians" is a popular theme for college parties all over the nation. It's based on old western movies and the stereotypes and generalizations they set up that continue until today. If you find a problem with that, then I hope you also find a problem with little children dressing up as cowboys and Indians for Halloween. Or little boys playing Cowboys and Indians?

A good number of the party goers were under 21, and the sorority probably thinks the Native American students are being overdramatic. Indulge yourself in the positive mission statements on sorority websites. They do community service, they hold study tables, girls are often involved around campus (many with leadership positions), they award their girls for academic achievements... but sororities, for the most, part are there to meet a social need. The girls are going to drink and party and have fun, and it's ridiculous to think otherwise.

That is, of course, my opinion, and as a member of a sorority, I probably have my biases, but I've tried to stay as fair as I can.

Yes, it was absolutly a mistake on the party hosts's behalf that no thought was given to the Native American students. But neither was any offense intended. They weren't purposefully excluded from the party, either. As far as I experienced that evening, no one brought up the Sioux logo and, aside from dressing up in war paint and feathers ("Hollywood made us do it"), nothing occured that the Native American students should have found offense in.

I hope I've been fair in my assessment of the party, but I'll also appreciate it if you think I'm wrong and tell me how so.

Cheers! :)

Anonymous said...

Logan, you're right... The thing is, a lot of students just don't really care, about the Sioux logo nor about being culturally sensitive. That's what happened with the party theme. It was all in good fun, and we just didn't care. That's a mistake on our part, and as a part of a university that is facing these issues, we especially shouldn't be easily excused for not caring. But, that's just how it was.

Anonymous said...

"but sororities, for the most, part are there to meet a social need"

The social need of men for an easy lay?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 9:29, I gather I'm older than you are. I'm a parent, I've finished my degrees, and I've learned a lot as I've grown up.

One thing I've learned is that you can't claim that lack of intent means much of anything when you're an adult. My kids used to wail, "But it was ON ACCIDENT!" when they did something wrong, as if not having the intent to do something wrong was somehow mitigating the offense. (And, yes, I know that "on accident" isn't grammatical, but they were 3 or 4 then.)

Here's the thing. You live in a big big world. Bigger than GF. Bigger than ND. Bigger than the US. You will meet people who are much different from you, in looks and in beliefs. The way we all get along--or try to get along--is to have respect for them. To think ahead just a little bit. To guard your mouth and your actions. To remember that you share the center of the universe with millions of other people.

It was just a party, but it hurt people. Was it worth it? No. Should you--should SOMEBODY--have thought ahead? Yes.

See?

Ah. You have just grown up a little bit.

naturalplastics said...

In the cities we had to dress up as pilgrims and indians in elementary school (I guess it was like 20 years ago). Big whoop!

If this group of people wants everyone to ignore their existance and history, why don't we just forget them. Why is it just our school's sports teams, why aren't they offended by history books?

While we're at it, no more free tuition for indian students, we'll repossess the thousands of square miles of reservations, remove laws set to protect archaeological sites, and 'sacred places' and let their culture die in obscurity.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 9:43 made me think of something (good post btw)...where are the apologies? So you didn't think ahead when you hosted the party. AND you didn't think when you posted the pictures for all to see. Go sit in time out and when you've thought it out...Apologize. And recognize that it was hurtful and harmful to the community...not only the Native American community but to UND and Grand Forks.

Anonymous said...

"While we're at it, no more free tuition for indian students, we'll repossess the thousands of square miles of reservations, remove laws set to protect archaeological sites, and 'sacred places' and let their culture die in obscurity."


Naturalmoron: It's ignorant comments like yours above that are helping the PC nuts to win this war and hastening the demise of our beloved nickname. It was wrong on so many levels.

Anonymous said...

I agree, discontinue the tution waiver for the native americans, but the rest of that post is pretty much never going to happen.

Anonymous said...

I agree, discontinue the tution waiver for the native americans, but the rest of that post is pretty much never going to happen.

Kelly Clow said...

Logan,

I put emphasis on "PRIVATE" because the party was not a sanctioned UND event.

As for referring to the discrimination complaint as a lawsuit...my bad. I have absolutely no idea as to why I kept referring to it as a lawsuit. The Herald even refers to it specifically as a complaint. Thanks for pointing that out. Like an idiot, I would have kept calling it a lawsuit without knowing it. Sometimes a word just sticks in my mind no matter how wrong it is. (I once called my car keys my "forks" three times before my girlfriend asked me what the hell I was talking about!)

Anonymous said...

Has anyone eaten at Bonzers? My friends and I decided to try their supposed "famous" sandwiches, and wow, they were terrible. The bread was dry and stale, and the meet was so thin it felt like you were eating a chunk of bread. And chips with your sandwich? No french fries as an option? All of this for 9 dollars plus tip. Never going there again to eat. Anyone else have a bad experience there?

OUWxGuesser said...

anon-11:07

Sounds identical to my experience.

Matthew said...

Bonzer's has apparently gone downhill since they decided to become a bar to allow smoking. I never had a sandwhich there, so I can't comment personally.

As for the Cowboys and Indians party: Look, the whole logo thing has been done to death. Some people are not going to change (like the "take back the tuition waivers: anon), and that's the way the world works. We can't legislate what people do on their own time unless it has real consequences, but there's a point at which it just isn't worth the effort to do some things that are going to cause such a ruckus for now reason.

The party may or may not have been socially "appropriate," but it was probably not the best idea for a theme party in this town. In other towns it may have worked just fine and nobody would have a problem, but Grand Forks (and North Dakota in general) have a significant native population.

Again, let me point out that I'm against the government/city/state/UND telling people what they can or cannot do with respect to similar parties and such, but it's just a matter of personal courtesy. Personally, I don't have such a problem with natives that I want to publicly mock them, so I would have pushed for a different kind of party. It's more of a Golden Rule thing: be nice to me and I'll be nice to you. This doesn't mean we can't have fun.

Comparing natives to the Irish or the French or the Jews or any other of a thousand different ethnic/cultural groups is not going to fix anything--every situation is different, and just like I think every political candidate ought to be treated as an individual rather than a party member, I think we should judge people on their individual merits, and not whichever stereotype you choose at the moment.

The world is grey, Jack.




On a different note, why does UND only need the support of the Sioux tribes within the state? Are Sioux from other states and Canada not offended for some reason?

Anonymous said...

And mine. Just went to Bonzer's last weekend for old time's sake, and let me tell you, the good old days are gone. The place is a dump, and the service is terrible. We won't be returning.

As far as identifying the whiners--that would be all the whiners. Professors, Native Americans, nickname supporters, liberals, conservatives, racists, and Johnny-Get-Alongs. Everybody just STFU. Change the ****ing name and be done with it.

Anonymous said...

Just for the record, The Mrs. and I support UND financially since leaving G.F. When, and if, UND changes the name of it's mascot, we will not continue to support the institution with our cash. Not because of any retribution or punishment. Because our connection is to the The UND Fighting Sioux.

We will feel no connection to the UND Wimperdoodles.

Matthew said...

Good on ya. If you'd rather give your money to a sports team than to an educational institution, I as a student would rather not have your money.

OUWxGuesser said...

Are donors that shallow that they will only support the school with the original nickname? Pathetic. When someone asks me what school I attended (or am currently attending), I don't tell them the logo/nickname. I tell them the actual name. The only place nickname/logo matters is on the field. It plays ABSOLUTELY NO ROLE in the classroom. Isn't that supposed to be the main reason you attend school?

Anonymous said...

You're a dumbass. The reality is, there are several institutions, non-profits, etc, who deserve a donation. When the rubber hits the road at the time to strike the check, The Frollicking Wimperdoodles go to the end of the list. Like I said earlier, no punishment or retribution, just the fact that the people and institution we feel a connection to, is gone. Fairly, simple concept.

Maybe even ouxguesser can grasp it.

Lynsey said...

Well said, Matthew and OUwxguesser.

I just find it incredibly hard to believe that no one in this sorority had the thought cross her mind that this might come across as offensive.

I also thought that girls in a sorority couldn't drink while wearing anything identifying themselves as part of the sorority, whether it is the Greek letters, the written name, or the crest/logo displayed on their clothing. Can anyone clear this up for me?

Anonymous said...

you're threatening to take your donation away because of a sports team name...I'm sorry but to me as a non-athletic, -ACADEMIC- STUDENT that to me IS the very definition of punishment to the UNIVERSITY and its STUDENTS and FACULTY.

OUWxGuesser said...

"Maybe even ouxguesser can grasp it."

My bad. I didn't realize that some people could graduate from college and only feel a connection to the nickname of the school they attended.

Anonymous said...

When you grow up and have your own money, you'll understand.

Anonymous said...

thanks for belittling poor students who don't understand the concept of having soooo much money.

Maybe your money would be better well spent trying to buy the tribes out.

Matthew said...

lynsey, I think the letter rule depends on the sorority or fraternity. I think that they can at a private party of their own, but not out at the bars where "outsiders" can see them. Not being into the Greek thing though, I don't know anything for sure :-)

anon 11:15, you hit the nail on the head there.

dale said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I think you should do whatever you want with your own money.

Anonymous said...

Are people still allowed to throw peanut shells on the floor at Bonzers?

Szymanski's Designated Driver said...

Anonymous donor: You've been donating to UND this whole time because of your "connection" to the Fighting Sioux name? So because of an NCAA imposed sanction that UND has tried to fight (though they stood no chance of winning in the first place) you're going to pull your money out? There's nothing UND can do, they'll have to change their name. I don't see your logic. You obviously never cared that much about the school in the first place if something that's out of UND's hands causes you to stop being a donor.

UND Senior said...

The photos that were saved to the photobucket account have been deemed in violation of their TOS, and the sorority president has removed her facebook account (can't imagine why!)...does anyone have the photos?? I'd like to see and judge them for myself...

Matthew said...

For some reason, the slideshow on the photobucket account still seems to work. Enjoy.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 9:43pm, I didn't say otherwise. :) I'm just in no position to make any apologies on everyone's behalf.


Well said, Matt, ouwxguesser, and anon @ 11:15. Lynsey, we're not supposed to drink with our letters on. We weren't wearing our letters. This isn't only for when we go out to bars, but for everywhere. Not even private parties because then pictures can be taken of us, posted, etc.


I wonder if the threat of withdrawal by alumni donors is a reason the University is hesitant to change the nickname. I mean, I imagine there is a threat, but how big is it? Does anyone know if alumni donors were ever surveyed? Hah! I've never planned on donating to the University, but maybe I will if they CHANGE the nickname. ;)


Speaking of pro-sports and anti-academia, I'd just like the thank UND for spending thousands on the nickname lawsuit, while closing off the Medical School because students would stay late to... guess what?... study!

Anonymous said...

Sorry, Lynsey. Confused for a second between letters and the Sioux logo. The event shirts did have Gamma Phi's name, and technically, the girls of Gamma Phi that were wearing the shirts should not have been drinking. A big reason the pictures were pulled is that the girls wearing their letters while drinking will get the chapter in trouble.

However, Gamma Phi's specifics on that rule may be different from my sorority's, so it's possible that it's okay if the girls are 21+. As far as I know, though, the rule is absolutely no drinking for anyone (even 21+) while in letters.

Anyone exclaiming "oh my god, underage drinking!" is a little late to the party, though.

thewanderingjew said...

I'd have to concur with what Matthew and ouwxguesser have said prior...as a student who is about to graduate the idea of being attached to the nickname is ridiculous.

Some people have been busy with Google...my blog post about the story has bumped my hits up well past 100 since this morning...pretty good for a blog that usually gets 10-15 hits a day :-P.

Anonymous said...

Yes, if there is anything good about Bonzer's, you can toss peanut shells all over the place if you wish.

naturalplastics said...

I thought the campus was supposed to be dry... At least that is what we were instructed to tell people as UND tour guides.

Anonymous said...

Umm, yeah. College students drink.

Anonymous said...

Might have missed this in the flurry of comments, so excuse me if this is old news here--but the Herald online reports sanctions on the sorority. "Social suspension," which seems to be a euphemism for "You're sort of grounded."

And both at UND and the international office of the sorority.

Kelly Clow said...

thewanderingjew,

You say in your forthcoming Dakota Student article:

"Mandatory diversity training should be required for members of the sorority."

You can't possibly be serious about suggesting something as Orwellian as that. Mandatory, state sponsored reeducation is a move straight out of the Communist Playbook.

To suggest that these girls be subjected to a forced session of someone else's "acceptable" point of view as a condition of being allowed back into the proverbial fold is nothing short of fascism.

Rebecca said...

Almost every place of employment where I've worked REQUIRED diversity and/or sexual harassment training. Pretty sure these establishments were not following the "Communist Playbook". I find it very hard to believe you've never had any "reeducation" yourself.

OUWxGuesser said...

When I attended grades 3-12, half of our English curriculum was dedicated to reading stories/non-fiction about other cultures including African, Native, and Jewish backgrounds. This was for good reason, we had an extremely diverse school district (in fact the white majority only made up 49% of the population). You could call this forced diversity training if you will. Is this communism? Uh no... we discussed problems/issues unique to different cultures and essentially, how to get along.

Assuming the party was not in ill spirit (which I don't think it was), I see no problem with having the sorority take some sort of class to realize why some people may find it offensive.

One other thing that remains unclear is whether the party was only cowboy themed or a combination of cowboy/Indian. This could simply be the actions of a few causing a huge stink, with the sorority taking the blame.

Logan said...

If it was simply a "cowboy" party, those dressed as "indians" should not have been allowed to stay. Not just because it's a party foul, but for the numerous aforementioned reasons. Plus, can you imagine the look on the police officers faces if they had been busted. Would have made great mug-shots.

If it was thrown by sorority members, those members should be disciplined. However it was off campus, and unsanctioned by any governing body. Unless they can prove the majority of the sorority members approved of the party/costumes, I don't think the entire house should be held responsible.

The party was held off campus, not in the sorority house itself. They can have alcohol off campus. I doubt, however, that they required the proper city permit to throw a party. Nor do I believe everyone was 21 and over.

As for what thewanderingjew suggested about diversity training, lets not stop at the sorority, lets apply it to the whole campus. Diversity is an inevitable part of the real world, why not prepare students properly before they get into worse situations later on in life.

Logan said...

http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=71604§ion=News

My mistake. Turns out the party was sanctioned, by the UND Greek Life office. It was held at the Grand Forks Country Club and pitched to UND as a "fun fall date party," according to the article.

Anonymous said...

i know for a fact that most of the girls dressed as indians in those pictures are members of Gamma Phi Beta. So even though they say it was just a "cowboy" party, they contradict themselves by having active members show up dressed in stereotypical indian attire.

Lynsey said...

Everyone going into education is required by the state to go through a "Multicultural Education" course with a special emphasis on American Indian cultures. It was an eye opening experience for me, and I think a version of this course should be part of the general education requirements for every student, everywhere. I wouldn't call this Orwellian -- I'd call it becoming more aware of the people we live and work with in our society.

Kelly Clow said...

Rebecca,

Yes, I've had sexual harassment training. But I've never been subjected to so-called diversity training.

I've learned of other cultures through World History courses, and by socializing with people of other cultures, but I can't imagine I would EVER sit through a force fed session of political correctness for ANY reason.

Nobody else is forced to sit through an Irish diversity class after pissing all over Irish culture every March 17th.

Until then, forced "education" as a punishment can go f**k itself.

Anonymous said...

I remember cowboy and indian frat/sorority parties taking place back when I was a student in the early 90s. This isn't new. It's just the first time anyone outside of the greek system had access to photos and decided to make an issue of it.

Matthew said...

Anonymous (3:25 PM, March 23, 2008), someone has some moreanswers to your questions.